The Russian word for staff or establishment when applied to a military organisation (i.e. the Table of Organisation and Equipment or TOE of a military formation) is штат, which when written in English script is shtat.
During the Great Patriotic War the Russian Army went through a number of different штат (or TOEs) for its military formations, with the result that Rifle Divisions could easily vary in size from 14,000 men to 6,000 men depending upon their location, time of formation, and exposure to combat. In some cases the actual (rather than the theoretical) strength of a Rifle Division could be much lower, especially after a period of combat.
So how does this affect my Thistlebarrow concept Rifle Divisions? I gave it some thought, and came up with the following examples:
Full-strength Rifle Division
During the Great Patriotic War the Russian Army went through a number of different штат (or TOEs) for its military formations, with the result that Rifle Divisions could easily vary in size from 14,000 men to 6,000 men depending upon their location, time of formation, and exposure to combat. In some cases the actual (rather than the theoretical) strength of a Rifle Division could be much lower, especially after a period of combat.
So how does this affect my Thistlebarrow concept Rifle Divisions? I gave it some thought, and came up with the following examples:
Full-strength Rifle Division
- In PORTABLE WARGAME terms, this Rifle Division would have a total of 32 SP
- In HEXBLITZ terms, this Rifle Division would have a total of 17 SP and a Logistic capacity of 2 LOG
- In PORTABLE WARGAME terms, this Rifle Division would have a total of 27 SP
- In HEXBLITZ terms, this Rifle Division would have a total of 13 SP and a Logistic capacity of 1 LOG
- In PORTABLE WARGAME terms, this Rifle Division would have a total of 21 SP
- In HEXBLITZ terms, this Rifle Division would have a total of 9 SP and a Logistic capacity of 1 LOG
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What period of the war are you considering? You mentioned Barbaross, whichof course has the fullfrange of divisions on the prewar Shtat to aabunch of blakesBla handed fifles and told they are now a "division".
ReplyDeleteThe examples given demonstrate a good range of options though.
Martin Rapier,
DeleteIt is my intention to try to re-fight a bath-tubbed version of Operation Barbarossa, so the Rifle Divisions will be all sorts of sizes depending upon where they were located, their state of mobilisation, etc. I am looking at various ways of doing this, including having different numbers of bases per division or varying the SPs allocated to each base.
All the best,
Bob
Lorries and other soft skins are proving difficult to procure. Of course it would help if knew more about the subject 😀 and I willingly admit ignorance. I was messing around with my toys and find that I have almost two Thistlebarrowed corps worth for the 8th army!
ReplyDeleteXXX Corps for example included the 7th Armoured. Therefore two tanks and an infantry stand can stand in for them. Two infantry ‘divisions’ of three bases each (plus support, in this case a Zvezda 2 pdr but they’re good enough). I have a couple of PSC 25pdrs awaiting deconstruction, so one of those will become the Corps artillery. I’m sorry but there is no picture, but as I have said half of this is still on the workbench.
Of course I have way too many Afrika Korps, but fortunately there are some Italians also waiting to be painted. Oh but school will be starting soon. I need another Summer.
Stephen Briddon,
DeleteYour two 8th Army Corps sound very interesting, and should provide an interesting force to deploy onto the tabletop.
My soft skin transport comes from a variety of sources. Some are modified Airfix trucks, some are ROCO Minitanks, and done are cheap diecast you trucks. In the UK cheap pound shops often sell sets of sets of construction vehicles which with a bit of imagination, new bodywork, and a suitable paint job make passable generic trucks. Matchbox and Hot Wheels are also a source of suitable cheapish vehicles that can be used. (I bought some tracked bulldozers that could be quickly converted into typical Russian heavy artillery tractors by the simple expedient of removing the dozer blade.)
All the best,
Bob
Jacko and I have been working on our Operation Crusader project for a little whiole now (puncruated in our usual dilittante style by diversions into other things). My OOBs for DAK and Italians are complete, andfiled under Word and EXCEL files; the Eighth Army yet to be transcribed to EXCEL.
ReplyDeleteMy smallest Italian Division, Brescia, is about the size of your middle Sovier Rifle Division"
HQ, GoC, car SP=1
Artillery (3x12-poece Bns) 1x75mm field gin SP=3
Infantry: group of 4 x Rifle, 1 x KW stand: SP=5
LOG element: 1LOG.
I have modifications for troops that increase the SP values up and down for equipment, quality and training, but instead of applying 'per stand' applies to the group as a whole. Conscript and reluctant troops go down one, so the 5-stand infantry group is reduced to 4.
Total SP by 'Brescia' Division: 8.
I must admit, it would take hardly any adjustment to modify the thing to your scheme, Bob, but it would need a lot of SP markers.
Of course, Ariete, Trieste, and to some extent, Trento Divisions are a whole deal stronger and more interesting. RECAM has also been done as a separate formation.
Cheers,
Ion
Archduke Piccolo,
DeleteIt sounds as if you are a bit further down the line with this idea than I am, and I'd love to see the OOBs when they are finished.
For aesthetic reasons, I like the look of the Medium-strength Rifle Division, especially as I can exchange the Artillery stand for a Mortar stand and the Anti-tank Gun stand for an Anti-tank Rifle stand to show less powerful divisional-level support.
In my OPERATIONAL ART rules I set a Morale rating for each Division, which represented its breaking point. This is not that different from your suggested group SP rating. This is perhaps something that I should look at again.
All the best,
Bob
Would these be for the PW?
ReplyDeleteConrad Kinch,
DeleteThe intention is that they will work with PW or MEGABLITZ, hence the reference to both in the blog entry under each type of Rifle Division.
All the best,
Bob
I’ll show my ignorance and ask what “KW” stands for. I especially want to know because I am working on a similar project. I was looking at the Italian division and boggled at the tiny size of it. A HQ, two-three stands plus Corps Artillery (and a Lorry if we were lucky!). My infantry stands will represent a whole regiment in Bob’s Thistlebarrow system. Thank you for sharing.
ReplyDeleteStephen Briddon,
DeleteI must admit that I'm not sure what it means myself, and had assumed that it represented all the smaller units such as engineers etc.
All the best,
Bob
That is what I guessed.
DeleteStephen Briddon,
DeleteIt make sense to me to treat it as that. If we are wrong, I'm sure that Archduke Piccolo will put us right.
All the best,
Bob
I'm sorry, guys: 'KW' was a typo. My eyesight is deteriorating, so at last I'm forced to do something about it.
DeleteWhat was supposed to there was 'HW' standing for Heavy Weapons. In the present state of things, such a stand has but easthetic value, but I am considering allowing the infantry component of my formations a 2-hex range for each SP of HW or MMGs. So the Brescia Division's 5 stands get SP=4 in combat against enemy in the adjacent grid area, but, if not otherwise engaged, can still use 1 SP against enemy 1 grid area distant.
This notion has yet to be play tested.
Archduke Piccolo,
DeleteSo it is what we thought it might be! Thanks for confirming that.
Having a Support or Heavy Weapons stand added to an Infantry Division makes sense, and gives it a bit of combat 'reach'. Not a lot, but enough to make a bit of difference.
All the best,
Bob
Yes, those Italian infantry divisions are tiny. I did the entire OB for Crusader at brigade level in 6mm, and the whole 8th Army, DAK and Italian Army fitted into a single box file!
ReplyDeleteMartin Rapier,
DeleteNow that is a truly portable set of wargame armies!
All the best,
Bob
I was really forced to do a double take on this. It makes one realize how much of a relative side-show North Africa was compared to the conflict in Russia.
DeleteStephen Briddon,
DeleteThe sheer scale of forces deployed by both sides beggars belief even when compared to the those that took part in large campaigns like the Battle for Normandy.
All the best,
Bob
Astonishing! I ought to see what stands and equipments are required for my own OOBs. I do think I'll have to revisit the whole SP scheme, though. Totting everything up gave me 160 SP for the 8th Army and, blow me down, almost exactly the same for the Italians and Germans combined! Clearly something is amiss!
DeleteArchduke Piccolo,
DeleteOne of the demands I had from potential players when I wrote THE PORTABLE WARGAME was for some sort of system that enabled players to produce 'balanced' forces, so I included such a points system in the book. Amazingly, it sounds as if you have managed to achieve a 'balanced' outcome in your OOBs without realising that you had. I wonder how that happened? Sheer chance I should imagine!
All the best,
Bob
Late to the party but could "KW" be a mis-type for "HW" standing for "heavy weapons" stand? That is a representation for the Italian penchant for weapons battalions?
ReplyDeleteIf Ion reads this I will extend an offer of looking over his OoB as I think he may be working from inferior sources.
Brescia, like Savona had not yet converted to the AS1941 organization by Crusader and continued with the AS1940 toe so should have 6 battalions in 2 regiments with possibly a MG battalion. Or at least that is what Frank Chadwick indicates, no doubt informed by Arturo Liorioli.
It should come as no surprise that I'm working on a Crusader OoB with plans for using the GDW board game and some form of Megablitz / Hexblitz or even PW miniatures rules (having just taken possession of hard copy versions of the latter two). As the game is hexed based, it makes sense to use a hex board and translate the ground scale. At present 3x4 board hexes translate to 9x12 4" hex Holz C&C mat which fits nicely on the dining table.
Neil
Neil Patterson,
DeleteYou may well be right. My reading of the various sources I have include a Heavy Weapon Battalion in binary Italian Infantry Divisions.
I am sure that quite a few of my regular blog readers would be interested your OOB for Operation Crusader. Although I don't currently have any plans to re-fight the North African Campaign, I'd be interested to see them for comparison purposes.
Good luck with your North African Campaign project ... and thanks for buying the hardback copies of my rules. I hope that you enjoy using them.
All the best,
Bob